Avaya ERS 8600/8800 vs Juniper EX8200

[sarahtanembaum]

We are considering replacing our Avaya/Nortel 8600 with the Juniper EX8200 (or whichever up to par with our current Avaya/Nortel configuration) as our core switch/router. I am looking for any comparison matrix so I can make an informed decision whether it's worth to continue with Avaya and upgrade the software to the latest recommended release. So far, I have but no luck finding those information. Help is greatly appreciated.

Currently, we have  ERS8600 with 2x8692SF CPU a few old 8616SXE, a 8608GBE, and some 8630GBR running older software version 4.1.x.x. Luckily, it has not given us problem so far(knock on wood). I realize that we have such a limited features running but hoping that the new software release 7.x will have features comparable to the Juniper EX8200 series.

Thanks in advance.

[Dominik]

To make a advice for you let us know what are your goals for the new core switches in the network.
Both devices has their pros and cons.
I think you will not find a public available matrix that is fair. It always depends who had made the comparison between the two devices....

Cheers

[sarahtanembaum]

Dominik, thanks for your kind response. Currently, we are using the Passport 8600 as our core router/switch for the enterprise as we have a "star configuration" whereas all closets switches(where all the users are connected to) and data centers switches(where the servers are connected to) are directly connected to the Passport. We are thinking to split the core switch/router to two(2) location and either running (R)SMLT (Nortel) or Virtual-Chassis(Juniper) for redundancies purposes. I am not sure whether this is a good ideas or not but I am looking for any advice the pros and cons of doing so using either solution (Avaya/Nortel or Juniper).

Also, we are not using any sophisticated Routing Protocol as all the devices is just 1 hop away from the core. Dunno if this is a good ideas but looking for advice as well.

Below are the working list that I am looking for(please add if necessary):
1) ease of configuration & flexibility
2) interoperability - currently we have mostly Nortel(470/4500/5500) and some Juniper EX4200.
3) performance
4) features. In the future, we'd like to implement VoIP and Video-on-Demand in the enterprise and therefore require QoS functionality; if we decided to split the routing, what are the pluses and minuses as compare to star configuration using either solution.

Thank you.

[HRK]

Hi,
At the point of compatibitlity and interoperability with the existing system, ERS will be preferred. But you are too well known on both good and weak points for ERS and you may wonder.   Please advise on your the goals such as Scalability, Easy to manage, Virtual Switch, Windows NLB, ADAC and VLAN numbers on the port assigned on ERS8K. I heard JNPR/EX8K/4K will not able to achive anything.

[Jon Hurtt]

Currently, we have  ERS8600 with 2x8692SF CPU a few old 8616SXE, a 8608GBE, and some 8630GBR running older software version 4.1.x.x. Luckily, it has not given us problem so far(knock on wood). I realize that we have such a limited features running but hoping that the new software release 7.x will have features comparable to the Juniper EX8200 series.

Thanks in advance.

I would admit i am little bias on this comparison, but curious of what features the EX8200 has and that you need that the ERS 8800 7.0 does not have?

Also I hope you are are aware that your hardware is very close to being 7.0 ready (SuperMezz and removing of 8616SXE and possibly High Speed Fan and PSU).

When it comes down to whether to split your core (SMLT/VC/MLAG), it is a decision of disaster planning and in-service maintenance.  Please note that these technologies are not all alike, many MLAG implementations (from what i can read Juniper's VC falls into this category) work with a master/backup scenario. Note that Avaya SMLT is not master/backup but Active-Active. That will give the highest level of availability without added cost. Also note SMLT has been deployed and implemented since 2001, while Juniper VC is very new.

Also it seems like the EX8200 requires additional hardware (XRE200) to achieve Virtual Chassis. Now note i am no expert on Juniper's Product just reading the documents they post to the web.

Link to Juniper Virtual Chassis Information: http://goo.gl/1ad60

[pat2012]

I would like to agree with Jon Hurtt on several of his points. I recently had to justify retaining Avaya as the choice for L2/L3 switching in my company. As a result I did quite a bit of research into the Avaya portfolio (and some on Juniper). At the end of the day the Avaya portfolio is strong. The ERS8600/8800 is a superior switch in many respects - Mr. Hurtt mentioned a few.

Also you should look at:
1. Power consumption - Avaya has some of the lowest figures
2. Recovery time during failures (link and switch fabric) - SMLT has proven to provide the fastest failover
3. Total cost of ownership - Avaya's ERS portfolio is some of the "greenest" on the market.
4. Ease of configuration (web based, command line, menu etc.)
5. Support

You mentioned video. Avaya/Nortel has a history with Voice and video. Avaya is currently in the leadership quadrant for VoIP (Gartner). They understand voice and video and this shows in their ERS swtiches - automatic QoS, ADAC, sub-second fail over etc.  The only other competitor to Avaya in my mind is Cisco, but let's not go there.... :-)

Avaya understands the need to have separate voice and data subnet VLANs and they design their switches to do just that. Their switches can detect the presence of an IP phone and automatically reconfigure themselves to support the voice traffic - plus they can configure the phones as well. You will not find these features with vendors who do not understand voice.

You have a very good product in the ERS8600/8800.  As Mr. Hurtt asked, are there any features you need that the ERS8600/8800 does not provide?

I hope this helps a bit.

See the attached document for a product brief.

[Telair]

Just a thought...  But if your looking at replacing hardware anyway, why not look at the Avaya VSP9000?  It was built for 10Gig and above speeds as a network core.  As I was lucky enough to install a pair of VSP9000's I can say they are beautiful boxes for those who can use 10Gig in the core.

http://www.avaya.com/usa/resource/assets/factsheet/vsp%209000%20dn4535%20final10-10.pdf

[pat2012]

Good point Telair.  But if cost is a factor, keeping the 8600/8800 would allow them to reuse most of the hardware they already have and still have advanced features. If they want more performance then the VSP 9000 is a good choice.

I heard the VSP 9000 being referred to as the "Nexus (Cisco) killer" by an Avaya engineer.  LOL!! I refer to it as an 8600 on steroids.

It is a great box. His smaller brother, the VSP 7000 is also very capable - more for top-of-rack deployments.

Check out the fact sheet.

[Telair]

I love the 8600/8800 and have been using them for 12 years now.  Wonderful boxes and I still think they are great, but they do have limits for 10Gig ports that you just can't get around.  And networks are not getting any slower.    If you have no need for a lot of 10Gig ports, by all means keep going with the 8600/8800's which I think of as excellent 1Gig routers that can put a few 10Gig ports on to.  Just thinking if they had some money to spend they might be interested in looking at the next generation of core router which would keep any network in good standing for the next 10 years.

We have a VSP7000 in our other office right now for the guys on the West coast to play with.  I am hoping to get my hands on it to poke at next month.  And yes, it is meant for top of rack 10Gig connectivity for horizontal stacking.  I have an educational institution that would have loved these, but at the time they were not yet available.  So they bought a truck-load of 5632's.  I hope Avaya will give them a deal on the VSP7000's which they were begging for a year ago.

[bylie]

Just to chime in on this discussion. We were pondering the same decision about a year ago and in the end decided to go with an Avaya VSP 9000 (redundant "everything" in the chassis) to replace our 2 x old Nortel ERS 8600's (non redundant chassis but in a cluster). The choice to go to a single, fully rendundant, chassis was because the old ERS 8600 cluster was in the same datacenter (in the same rack on top of each other actually) which didn't really make much sense to us. We might be reviewing this decision if a second datacenter would be on the horizon.

The Juniper EX 8208 also was an option but we decided against it for the following reasons:

• We wanted full compatibility with our current environment which exists of 99% Nortel/Avaya switches.
• We wanted one management platform to manage our network. Previously we were using Nortel ESM and now we're using Avaya COM.
• We also weighed in the additional costs to learn JunOS.
• We wanted a futureproof platform (8 - 10 years lifespan), meaning we were also looking at +1 Gb/s I/O modules and their relationship to the switch fabric bandwidth and oversubscription factors. The VSP 9000's different design and massive switch fabric throughput just shows here.

In the end it was quite a gamble for us as the VSP 9000 was quite young and to be honest we did experience software bugs when we started testing. These problems were escalated to the Avaya engineers quite rapidly for troubleshooting and the appropriate patches were build so we could make the swap and take everything in production. Afterwards these fixes were also incorporated in subsequent official releases (SW v3.1.x.x).

The problem with these things is that most of the time "the grass always seems to be greener on the other side". In other words, if you've had some problems with one vendor this might leave a bitter taste and it's very tempting to conclude that another vendor would be better; only to find out, after you've purchased the other vendor's equipment, that it also has it's own list of problems.

[DaveTheRave]

Hi all,

I see the core of this debate is around functionality and price, which are obviously key factors in any decision, but I want to raise support.

My recent experience of Avaya support against Juniper is valid here. Personally, despite having expensive support and maintenance contracts in place, I have found Avaya support to be slow, cumbersome and generally a very painful experience. The changes to support contracts have also left a bitter taste in my mouth. Less support for more cost. Now, we all know that no manufacturer produces perfect code, however, Avaya's track record on releasing stable bug free code is not great.

My experience of Juniper support is the exact opposite. Great partner network, excellent value for money, they are quick to respond and code is generally very good, and when it isn't, upgrades are quickly made available.

I would just say to the OP that support should be a key factor in the decision making process.

Hope it all goes well whatever decision you make and please keep us posted.

[mdieter1]

Though both can contribute to providing redundancy, Avaya SMLT and Juniper Virtual Chassis are not really equivalent.  SMLT pairs 2 nodes together that still operate independently of each other and are managed independently of each other.  Virtual Chassis "ties" multiple (up to 8 ?) devices together to operate as a single node--each device essentially becomes a blade in a chassis.  Virtual Chassis with EX8200 switches also requires a minimum of 2 Juniper server appliances that serve as the control plane (control plane functionality is off-loaded from the Routing Engine modules).
Juniper recently added support for something called Multi-Chassis LAG (Link Aggregation Group) which I believe is more of a direct competitor to SMLT.